Professor of Law, Itse Sagay, spoke frankly in a chat with Premium Times, tackling critical issues from his committee to the corruption level in the country at present and in the last administration.
Below are some of the profound things he said:
Buhari knew what he was doing when he appointed Amaechi and Fashola
“Who are the people who wrote petitions against Amaechi and Fashola? Primarily, they are this same people who are afraid of being probed. Who thought these two strong men being in Buhari’s government will so strengthen that government.
“That the contrast between it and the Jonathan government will be so strong and that they themselves will be exposed. Do you think Wike will want Amaechi to be in any government? He would not. He is so frightened of Amaechi, if he could destroy him he would have destroyed him long ago.
“There’s nothing he had not done to destroy him. With Mama Patience. There’s nothing they haven’t done. It’s just that the guy is such a clucky, strong, energetic, and witty fellow that just got himself out of all that. Then they just cooked up a panel made up of sympathetic, pro-Wike judges who went there parading themselves in a most dishonourable manner. So it’s nothing to be taken seriously.
“The same thing with Fashola. Some people did not want Fashola to be in this government and so they just decided that the best thing to do is to tarnish his name, tarnish his record, which the whole world respects. From the United States to Australia, to the Middle East, to even the United Nations, everybody knows that Fashola has the best record in governance that this country has had since Awolowo. So they just wanted to destroy all that over night because they were frightened of him becoming a minister. That’s why I have a great respect for Buhari. He was unmoved. He was unshaken. He just kept his cool. And when he now came out, what did he do? He made Fashola the symbol of his government. Fashola is the number one minister in this country today. And Transport given to Amaechi is equally important, because we are talking of railways, highways, aviation, and so on. Buhari knows what he is doing most of the time. He doesn’t talk much.”
Buhari’s corruption war is not only against the opposition
“No. It hasn’t. You see, what is happening, I’m a little bit in the know of this, this government is not going out of the way to look for people to prosecute. No. They are prosecuting people whose corruption is jarring them in the face. Corruption that is virtually blocking your road, you cannot move unless you move it out of the way.
“That’s the type of corruption we are facing. Corruption that has crippled this government now. So when they talk of corruption of Obasanjo, Yar’adua, all these people, that we should go back to that, no complain about that. But if we don’t clear the last five years, the type of corruption we have seen is mind-boggling and not only that, they are all close. You can see the way the NSA’s office was turned into a bazaar. Even after Buhari was elected, they still transferred money, over 27 billion to NSA’s office, after the election.
“We have to deal with those first. How can you now go back to 1960, to Shagari and so on when you have this low-hanging fruit right in your face. It makes no sense. So it’s not a question of discrimination. It’s a question of going after the obvious, the immediate, the most threatening which has to be taken care of before you move on”
The previous law on corruption in Nigeria is not working
"Very major thing, is the reform, improvement, and application of the Administration of Criminal Justice Act. So administration of criminal justice generally but with specific reference to the Administration of Criminal Justice Act of 2015.
“You saw the recent explosion in the country over the Supreme Court’s decision where there was so much controversy whether the Supreme Court ought to have granted a stay regarding the Code of Conduct Tribunal operations.
“So our job is to ensure that this particular law works. And the reason why it has to work is because before it the previous law was not working. You charge somebody to court for corruption, the first thing the person’s lawyer does is to file a preliminary objection challenging the jurisdiction of the court, challenging the validity of the charges, and so on. And they would now compel the court to concentrate on these preliminary matters and completely forget the charges which brought them to court. And, say, if after two or three years they lose, they would appeal to the Court of Appeal. They would not say ‘Ok let us hear the case now.’ No no no. They will appeal to the Court of Appeal and knowing the mentality and the culture of the judiciary.
“Once you say you appeal, the High Court is so frightened it will suspend its proceedings. And so the thing goes on to the Court of Appeal. And they go through the same rigmarole, two-three years, court rules that the lower court has jurisdiction. They appeal to the Supreme Court. And that goes through another two-three years rigmarole. So by the time they finally say the court has jurisdiction we are talking of 10-12 years. By the time you come back to the High Court to actually hear the case, witnesses have died, retired, the investigating police officer is retired, he’s no longer there. Those who are familiar with the case in the ministry have become judges. So the case dies a natural death and they create what we call ‘prosecution fatigue.’ That’s what used to be.
“Now under this Administration of Criminal Justice Act 2015, all these problems have been solved. That Act says there must be no adjournment, adjournment is prohibited. Once the case starts, it has to go on from day to day till it’s concluded. There are provisions where there is an extreme need for an adjournment, the judge uses his discretion to grant two weeks, 14 days. And this can be done five times during the life of the case, after that the judge doesn’t have the competence, the case must go on till the end. That’s number one.”
There will be no jurisdiction redundancies in the reforms
“He (the lower court judge) gives judgment, he agrees he has no jurisdiction. Then he will say, ‘supposing I’m wrong in saying so, this is the judgment I would have delivered in the corruption case.’ He will still send the man to prison even though he says ‘I have no jurisdiction, but in case I have, I’m sending you to five years imprisonment.’
“Case goes on, to the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court will now look at the two. The Supreme Court may agree with him and say ‘oh, she has no jurisdiction, I uphold her. But I will also look at the substantive matter. If I had jurisdiction, you’d have gone to prison for five years.’
“Supreme Court may end up saying yes they have jurisdiction therefore we adopt the jurisdiction and you are going for the five years. Do you see the difference? It’s a dramatic difference. It’s a revolution. So within nine months the case is heard, 18 months it’s finished in the Court of Appeal, in another two years it’s finished in the Supreme Court and you know your fate. No going up and down, the two are taken together. That is the new law.”
Jonathan promoted corruption as a way of life
“But you and I know that they were promoting corruption as a way of life. Look at all the revelations which you and I know. In fact, when I started reading it I started laughing because it reminded me of so much of one culture in Delta State where I come from. We have all these young young boys who don’t have a job, who are looking for money anyhow. If there’s anything going on, any party, they’ll go there. If there’s any rich man in town, they’ll go there hoping he’ll throw money. And when one gets and he’s going away, he’ll see the other and he’ll say “You don obtain?” Then that one will go and tell the other “You don obtain?”
“The Jonathan government has introduced the culture of ‘You don obtain’ as a national culture. For everybody to be walking into an office somewhere and collecting his share of Nigerian resources and walking away for nothing. So there’s no question that the Jonathan government actively promoted corruption. And has wrecked and ruined this country as a result because we have no money anymore. It’s just incredible that anybody can just wake up and get his share. This man got 100 million, this one got 2.1 billion, everybody is having a share. On what basis? Tompolo had 13 billion. Everybody. As long as you belong to the PDP, you can just walk in some office and collect a suitcase of money and go. Somebody went to the Central Bank and collected 14 suitcases of dollars, $47 million in suitcases. That’s a bazaar, it’s bizarre. That’s not an organized country. That is chaos and total disorder.”
Below are some of the profound things he said:
Buhari knew what he was doing when he appointed Amaechi and Fashola
“Who are the people who wrote petitions against Amaechi and Fashola? Primarily, they are this same people who are afraid of being probed. Who thought these two strong men being in Buhari’s government will so strengthen that government.
“That the contrast between it and the Jonathan government will be so strong and that they themselves will be exposed. Do you think Wike will want Amaechi to be in any government? He would not. He is so frightened of Amaechi, if he could destroy him he would have destroyed him long ago.
“There’s nothing he had not done to destroy him. With Mama Patience. There’s nothing they haven’t done. It’s just that the guy is such a clucky, strong, energetic, and witty fellow that just got himself out of all that. Then they just cooked up a panel made up of sympathetic, pro-Wike judges who went there parading themselves in a most dishonourable manner. So it’s nothing to be taken seriously.
“The same thing with Fashola. Some people did not want Fashola to be in this government and so they just decided that the best thing to do is to tarnish his name, tarnish his record, which the whole world respects. From the United States to Australia, to the Middle East, to even the United Nations, everybody knows that Fashola has the best record in governance that this country has had since Awolowo. So they just wanted to destroy all that over night because they were frightened of him becoming a minister. That’s why I have a great respect for Buhari. He was unmoved. He was unshaken. He just kept his cool. And when he now came out, what did he do? He made Fashola the symbol of his government. Fashola is the number one minister in this country today. And Transport given to Amaechi is equally important, because we are talking of railways, highways, aviation, and so on. Buhari knows what he is doing most of the time. He doesn’t talk much.”
Buhari’s corruption war is not only against the opposition
“No. It hasn’t. You see, what is happening, I’m a little bit in the know of this, this government is not going out of the way to look for people to prosecute. No. They are prosecuting people whose corruption is jarring them in the face. Corruption that is virtually blocking your road, you cannot move unless you move it out of the way.
“That’s the type of corruption we are facing. Corruption that has crippled this government now. So when they talk of corruption of Obasanjo, Yar’adua, all these people, that we should go back to that, no complain about that. But if we don’t clear the last five years, the type of corruption we have seen is mind-boggling and not only that, they are all close. You can see the way the NSA’s office was turned into a bazaar. Even after Buhari was elected, they still transferred money, over 27 billion to NSA’s office, after the election.
“We have to deal with those first. How can you now go back to 1960, to Shagari and so on when you have this low-hanging fruit right in your face. It makes no sense. So it’s not a question of discrimination. It’s a question of going after the obvious, the immediate, the most threatening which has to be taken care of before you move on”
"Very major thing, is the reform, improvement, and application of the Administration of Criminal Justice Act. So administration of criminal justice generally but with specific reference to the Administration of Criminal Justice Act of 2015.
“You saw the recent explosion in the country over the Supreme Court’s decision where there was so much controversy whether the Supreme Court ought to have granted a stay regarding the Code of Conduct Tribunal operations.
“So our job is to ensure that this particular law works. And the reason why it has to work is because before it the previous law was not working. You charge somebody to court for corruption, the first thing the person’s lawyer does is to file a preliminary objection challenging the jurisdiction of the court, challenging the validity of the charges, and so on. And they would now compel the court to concentrate on these preliminary matters and completely forget the charges which brought them to court. And, say, if after two or three years they lose, they would appeal to the Court of Appeal. They would not say ‘Ok let us hear the case now.’ No no no. They will appeal to the Court of Appeal and knowing the mentality and the culture of the judiciary.
“Once you say you appeal, the High Court is so frightened it will suspend its proceedings. And so the thing goes on to the Court of Appeal. And they go through the same rigmarole, two-three years, court rules that the lower court has jurisdiction. They appeal to the Supreme Court. And that goes through another two-three years rigmarole. So by the time they finally say the court has jurisdiction we are talking of 10-12 years. By the time you come back to the High Court to actually hear the case, witnesses have died, retired, the investigating police officer is retired, he’s no longer there. Those who are familiar with the case in the ministry have become judges. So the case dies a natural death and they create what we call ‘prosecution fatigue.’ That’s what used to be.
“Now under this Administration of Criminal Justice Act 2015, all these problems have been solved. That Act says there must be no adjournment, adjournment is prohibited. Once the case starts, it has to go on from day to day till it’s concluded. There are provisions where there is an extreme need for an adjournment, the judge uses his discretion to grant two weeks, 14 days. And this can be done five times during the life of the case, after that the judge doesn’t have the competence, the case must go on till the end. That’s number one.”
There will be no jurisdiction redundancies in the reforms
“He (the lower court judge) gives judgment, he agrees he has no jurisdiction. Then he will say, ‘supposing I’m wrong in saying so, this is the judgment I would have delivered in the corruption case.’ He will still send the man to prison even though he says ‘I have no jurisdiction, but in case I have, I’m sending you to five years imprisonment.’
“Case goes on, to the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court will now look at the two. The Supreme Court may agree with him and say ‘oh, she has no jurisdiction, I uphold her. But I will also look at the substantive matter. If I had jurisdiction, you’d have gone to prison for five years.’
“Supreme Court may end up saying yes they have jurisdiction therefore we adopt the jurisdiction and you are going for the five years. Do you see the difference? It’s a dramatic difference. It’s a revolution. So within nine months the case is heard, 18 months it’s finished in the Court of Appeal, in another two years it’s finished in the Supreme Court and you know your fate. No going up and down, the two are taken together. That is the new law.”
Jonathan promoted corruption as a way of life
“But you and I know that they were promoting corruption as a way of life. Look at all the revelations which you and I know. In fact, when I started reading it I started laughing because it reminded me of so much of one culture in Delta State where I come from. We have all these young young boys who don’t have a job, who are looking for money anyhow. If there’s anything going on, any party, they’ll go there. If there’s any rich man in town, they’ll go there hoping he’ll throw money. And when one gets and he’s going away, he’ll see the other and he’ll say “You don obtain?” Then that one will go and tell the other “You don obtain?”
“The Jonathan government has introduced the culture of ‘You don obtain’ as a national culture. For everybody to be walking into an office somewhere and collecting his share of Nigerian resources and walking away for nothing. So there’s no question that the Jonathan government actively promoted corruption. And has wrecked and ruined this country as a result because we have no money anymore. It’s just incredible that anybody can just wake up and get his share. This man got 100 million, this one got 2.1 billion, everybody is having a share. On what basis? Tompolo had 13 billion. Everybody. As long as you belong to the PDP, you can just walk in some office and collect a suitcase of money and go. Somebody went to the Central Bank and collected 14 suitcases of dollars, $47 million in suitcases. That’s a bazaar, it’s bizarre. That’s not an organized country. That is chaos and total disorder.”
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